Is There A Conspiracy? – A Reply

Here’s a video a good friend of mine recently made, and what follows is my reply:

Your first premise is not mutually exclusive, they could be trying to screw everyone over as part of benefiting themselves.  Your second premise from what I understand of quantum theory (and I may be wrong, easily) I would say falls down on the idea of decisions, in that the observer affects the result by observing, or so I think the science says, and not by direct decisions about what the result should be of that situation (beyond that of to observe), although I may be inclined to agree with you in certain contexts that our decisions may be influential in the outcome such that we can decide to mould reality on a certain level, I don’t think the science goes as far as to back that point .  That may be our own belief making that jump (and maybe moulding reality!).  Either way I think this video is cool if you every want a starting point to discuss it with someone:

As for the overall view I would say that its not a conspiracy but just politics and the idea of elites is fair enough but I would want to see it, or form my reality, around the idea that there is a dominant group that needs to be challenged and reduced (from my perspective) for something better than the current model.  I think the culture and its displays ie music, architecture, etc.  are signs of who is in control, especially for those in the know, and some are deliberate and others are a kind of trickle down copycat.  So I would say it’s not a conspiracy, just politics, and the real “hidden” factor is that people have systems to vote for people that are all in the pocket of the elite in some form so there isn’t really a choice.  The division, or “battle lines” if you like, should really be redrawn between the elite and the others, and as long as they are able to redraw the “battle lines” in other areas they can redirect the battle itself away from them, the root cause in a lot of senses.  In an idealistic sense it would be better if there were lots of different battles on issues by rational actors or groups (not solely rational however but passionate and emotional too) on different areas but not where one group had an overwhelming hold on the reins and where the outcome was so out of synch with nature or the well-being of so many.  However the projection of this as a reality existing now may be another form of smoke screen.  These ideas of redirection on what I would call a political level, but what you may consider as behind the scenes, is where I think your idea of conspiracy comes in.

I think you’re appeals to truth and structure through looking at science and using premises are undermined by claims about there only being three buildings ever to have collapsed through fire damage, all on 11/9, but I guess we are all allowed our own style.  Having said that the movement into the mystical, spiritual, metaphysical side is something that may be influential and foundational but part of the problem with this is that it is unprovable (as I think it should be) and so becomes a personal thing if we go beyond psychology on an individual and social level.  However I am aware that I am beginning to sound very reductionist so will leave this relpy here for now and see what you come back with…..

(PS enjoyed your video greatly)

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4 thoughts on “Is There A Conspiracy? – A Reply

  1. Hi Gaz,

    Thanks for taking the time to reply. I did make this vid after our chat with those questions you emailed in mind. Would like to make a bit of a response to clear a few things up and hopefully to further the discussion as dont think we are too far away in many of our conclusions

    When I say is there an elite who are just furthering their own ends versus screwing us over, what I was getting at was the distinction we drew in our chat between elites who are in these meetings simply furthering their own personal need and not working together except only in a way that necessitates versus the group being there pimarily to actively work against the general population. I think clearer language would have helped but hopefully this shows the division better. Ultimately though I agree that they dont have to be mutually exclusive but one of my aims for the vid was to try break down the argument of the conspiracy I see as clear as poss (well obviously an essay or a better structured vid would have helped but I am moving to the other side of the world and am a little preoccupied, though of course I love this subject, so in time, maybe with this helping ill make a better vid!). In making that distinction I think it makes it easier to hold the idea they are actively working against us without having to commit to it initially, I did of course intend to go on after the quantum theory bit to show that is the case and why I think that, but thats for later. Really for the first premise what I wanted to establish was the idea that

    1 there is an elite, who meet behind closed doors, and openly too. They may or may not like you.

    Which hopefully I did, and I think your call that they dont have to be mutually exclusive can be accepted into this as it paves a way of arguing that for the elite to have personal gain it must necessitate working against us, (its just of course to what ends : ) ).

    Regarding the quantum stuff, there have been experiments that show the intention of the observer influences outcomes. The experiment im thinking of I dont recall the source, but I do watch these vids alot so when it springs up again ill add a link. In an experiment a series of beeps and, I dunno, call it another sound thats not a beep, were recorded onto a tape in random orders. The recording of these beeps and non beeps was done in such a way as to be random. This tape was then given to a subject who would be told to choose before hearing it what they wanted to hear more of and amazingly, you guessed it, the subject found them listening to what they wanted to hear more often than not. Obviously this was done on a big enough scale and with enough different tapes to show the effect. Im also reminded of that story of a bunch of meditators who were told to meditate on there being a lower crime rate and stats proved when these people were meditating the crime rate went down. There is something to be said for the intention of the observer being able to shape the world. Obviously to a quantum theorist these examples may be a bit crass and will happily bow to better knowledge (that is of course the aim of this, I have no fixed opinion my friend) but hopefully they show or at least I think they show that there is something about our decisions that shape the world. And where it goes mental is that this idea really does want to transcend our idea of physics and how we currently view the world, are we all super heros? Anyone heard of a guy called John Chang? To me it seems crazy, but also possible, and perhaps even logical, but right now I dont know. Maybe thats the secret knoweldge the elites have been hiding all these thousands of years? : )

    And so back to the elites.

    Im not too sure what you mean when you say

    “As for the overall view I would say that its not a conspiracy but just politics and the idea of elites is fair enough but I would want to see it, or form my reality, around the idea that there is a dominant group that needs to be challenged and reduced (from my perspective) for something better than the current model.”

    I trust what you mean when you say theres not a conspiracy, that you mean, not one as I laid out, as just having an elite working together is sure a conspiracy? (Part of the beauty of this discussion is that it almost assumes theres an elite which I like as that really is enough for us to hold and change) Or is it that its just so obvious you cant call it a conspiracy anymore, its just true : )

    But then this bit throws me a bit

    but just politics and the idea of elites is fair enough but I would want to see it,

    Not sure what you mean especially when you go on to say we need to form a ‘we are the 99%’ mentality. But perhaps you mean an elite acting out as I say? In terms of manipulating the quantum idea? Perhaps my quote re 11/9 stopped you dead there because, I admit, that is wrong, I meant they were the first three skyscrapers to collapse due to fire damage. I think for this point its important also to consider other blazing skyscrapers and how they compared to world trade centre 7 http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html
    Of course, theres a million other questions youd have to answer if you wanted me to shift on my view of 11/9 so I dont know if getting into 11/9 would become a sidetrack. I do think if you get to the point where 11/9 was an inside job for you, it aint going to take much more to convince you these elites are actively working against us! But its a tricky one so id say if you want to make a sidelink about that all the better.

    Anyway I think the bit of the conspiracy you stop at, or what I call a conspiracy, is the movement into the mystical or spiritual.But I fear Gaz if you want to go on, you must go here or you miss the very crux of what I am calling ‘the global conspiracy.’ You must remember that a key part of my conspiracy is the quantum / consciousness shaping the universe meeting an elite who are manipulating concisouness!

    But fear not because where you say its unprovable I say you can at least show attempts at this, and if not then all the better for my pyschology – its win win

    So as a means to get into it,

    Perhaps you would say

    ‘signs of who is in control, especially for those in the know, and some are deliberate and others are a kind of trickle down copycat. ‘
    Or that celebrities throwing up the pyramid sign/ devil horn/ all seeing eye is just, for the want of a better word, ‘on trend’ or faddy.

    I would argue

    signs of who is in control for sure, copycat understandable, but also dont forget those in control have been in control for thousands of years. I was having a discussion with another friend who was arguing that signs had become appropriated with power over time and the rulers simply took them over. I can take that point, but it is diminished by the fact the rulers have in fact only ever changed by name, not by lineage. The real owners of these signs still own them today. But I would go further and say these signs and symbols also have a power away from that devined through authority. If that is the case, if they do have a hidden power, and they sure are everywhere, is that affecting our concisousness on any level?

    You could say pop star britney/ katy perry, hired for looks and voice, riding on the back of manufactured pop created by others after a quick buck.
    Or it could be mind controlled, sold their sole to the devil, miley cyrus invoking demon slaves owned by the elite who are like those women at the party in stanley kubricks eyes wide shut peddling out trash like ‘prism’ in order to lull the general population into their own demise.

    you could say kubricks eyes wide shut – a film with no deeper meaning than its story that appears on screen, or jimmy savile a one off freak but could it be kubricks desperate (last) attempt to show the real peado hooded, alaister crowley sex practicing, savile elites and their controlling methods who were mentioned in early stories from the news that broke around savile?

    Disney, a film maker cum theme park, toy maker, or goebbels influencing cartoon whose main characters always have a broken family, subliminal, getting kids to look at the world in a certain way part of a hollywood who help cast the spells of the conspiracy. How many can imagine the end of the world versus the end of money? Not important, unless if we can imagine life without money, maybe, that would happen?

    Admittedly putting words into your mouth their gaz but necessary to try to highlight what Im going on about. I can quite easily entertain the idea signs mean nothing but I think its important to consider, especially because they could be holding us and the entire universe, in check on some epic level. I mean ever since theyve had all these symbols theyve had all the power and having them there has never ever led to equality.

    Overall, I feel what I want in the end is twofold, 1 an end to elites and the inequality and ecocide going on and 2 a better understanding of the universe. And I think these aims can be achieved easily without having to accept what I propose so its ok, but of course, when they come to trial it would be nice to know exactly what to charge them with : ) and if we are the makers of the world – wow!

    Thanks Gaz

    Schenior

  2. Wayne

    So what you are saying is that within these behind the scenes meetings, or not transparently open to the public meetings, there are a mix of people, some of who are out for themselves and some who are out to maintain the elite domination of the population as a whole? I suppose an apt question here would be where does the emphasis lie in this statement?:

    “There are some in the elite who are working against the general population to maintain their superiority. ”

    Is the emphasis on “working against the general population” in the sense that they are power hungry people who just love the feel of having dominion over others or is the emphasis on “maintain their superiority” in which case they might be seen as people who view the world from a perspective of everyone is competing and so I must use my advantages to maintain my higher position as that is what everyone else would do? (e.g. dog eat dog or Hobbes’ nasty brutish and short.) I guess there are probably both these sort of people involved on some level and even within each of us the tendencies may arise to different extents, but for the sake of everyone it may be easier to think, hopingly, of them as the second group (but also whilst preparing to confront the first). The second group may be eventually manoeuvred into a less selfish life style, where as the first may simply have to be controlled if things would be seen to get better.

    Having said that the way you have phrased:

    “1 there is an elite, who meet behind closed doors, and openly too. They may or may not like you”
    I would agree with generally but wouldn’t be concerned as to whether they like you or not, but would say they are using you for ends that are not necessarily to your benefit and are probably to theirs.

    As for the comments on the experiments, I think if they can be proved to be true and directly linked then I think they would be amazing, but you do need to provide the sources for me to get my own head around it.

    As for the conspiracy bit again I feel you were thrown by mine as it was a piece with bad punctuation. To rephrase it I could say:

    “There is no conspiracy in this sense just politics. There is a dominant group that needs to be challenged. This is how I would want to see the situation.”

    To extend on that point further the idea of a conspiracy in a grand overarching manner is what I am against. I think there probably are conspiracies and cover ups that happen a lot for the benefit of those in power, JFK and 11/9 could be prime examples of possibilities at least, but i don’t think the fact that there is an elite trying to dominate the political landscape is a conspiracy, they just may be the cause of smaller conspiracies that serve their purpose. I think politics is about these groups at the top trying to serve their own perspective of what the good life is which inherently involves maintaining their position as they see it as good. At the same time those lower down may see the good life as involving breaking the hold of those at the top to enable them to access some improvements to their situations. Conspiracies maybe tools to maintain this situation by those with the resources to carry out such things. I think this is why people say such thing as democracy is a constant war (I cant remember if this Locke, Mill or Rushdie, or maybe even all three). You can’t rest on your laurels as every other group is trying to improve their situation and so if you stand still those who are running will surpass you (similar in a sense to how Naomi Klein depicts marketing in No Logo). So the reality of politics is that you have to maintain a constant pressure to at least keep your position and this is how the elites often win out as they make people disassociate/ disown/ feel disempowered by the systems and so people disengage with the kind of mass movements the elites truly fear.

    As for the 11/9 conspiracy I think that is a debate for another day, but i am at least open to the possibility of different stories to the cause of it, but I don’t think it is essential to come to a conclusion on it to address some of the world’s worst problems.

    I don’t understand how this part shows it is win win, more explanation would be good:

    “But fear not because where you say its unprovable I say you can at least show attempts at this, and if not then all the better for my pyschology – its win win”

    On the point of signs being passed down through generations and inherited as means of control I couldn’t say that it is wrong or right, as I haven’t had any experience of the mystical aspect. From a perspective separate from the mystical it could be quite easy to create a narrative that explains how these symbols could be passed on involving ideas such as humans seeking meaning and symbolism being a vessel for this. But to try and take your point head on I don’t know about the underlying mystical current that may be prevalent as it hasn’t manifested itself in my life. If there were such a current then it may be that I would change my perspective to that of a conspiracy (or I may just say that the elite’s perspective was still a politic with better information), however, and this is the important bit, I have seen nothing to convince me that this is true (I have seen many suggestions that I haven’t totally written off, but I have also heard it suggested that my life may be a dream and one day I will wake up and find I am a dog, something I consider from time to time and cannot deny completely, but it is not something I base actions in this life/dream on, and has certainly not convinced me).

    What I find really interesting is this:

    “the fact the rulers have in fact only ever changed by name, not by lineage.”

    I would wonder how you construct this perspective. I can think of a number of ways that you might but to go beyond a tautology or people with power helping others get to power because of some favour they deem worthy (family/friend/admired characteristic/own interests, and the list could go on) I don’t know if there is a continual factor that links all the people in power ever apart from that they have been in power and they have some human characteristics that are crucial to gaining power (ability/self belief/aggression/charisma or the like). So I can see the possibility of tracing a line through those in power but I don’t think it has always been handed over willingly or that there have never been new members admitted from what might at the time seemed like an outsider.

    I think the crux of what this comes down to is how we construct narratives about ourselves. Whilst these may be dependent on mystical powers that are currently beyond my own understanding or experience beyond a very elusive level, I will happily admit that the potential power of our beliefs about such things over how we act and construct our narratives is massive. So for me to some extent the truth of the causes of such things are not as crucial as our beliefs about the truth of these causes. I hope you can see what I mean here, to give you an example from my own life:

    I choose to believe in reincarnation as firstly I believe my beliefs mould the way I act and think about the universe I live in. Part of this belief is that after death we become at one with a universal something that is beyond time and the physical. Upon being reborn we are once again separated and placed in time and space as an individual. This necessarily entails that from a certain perspective “I” (as part of the universal whatever it is) will be everyone at some point. The main reason I choose to believe this is because of the influence it holds on the way I act towards others (who are in some sense the same “I”) and I hope this will make me a better person in my relations with others. Having constructed this narrative there are facts I experience that I feel reinforce the view and also at some times make me feel as though this maybe part of the elusive meaning to life, in that we are trying to construct a perspective that deepens understanding and enhances our ability to exist in harmony/empathise with things around us.

    So this perspective doesn’t really, when viewed from a scientific materialistic reductionist sense, have any measurable proof to it (although I may argue my own personal evidence is relevant to me). However it does hold a huge influence on my actions, thoughts and perceptions. For different people there is also the opportunity to introduce different influences into this through the public sphere and here is another opportunity for the idea of a conspiracy to arise as if we cannot understand how these influence us, they may be doing the job of constructing our reality whilst we are oblivious to it. So we are open to a manipulation that we are unaware of (this might be a definition of conspiracy). Also I think this does acknowledge what you said about these sorts of ideas being important to consider, and touches on the area of things being checked on an epic level.

    I think the crux that you move toward where the mystical and conscious cross over is a crucial area and if there is a battleground where a conspiracy could enter into it would be in the public sphere where this happens. I think the mystical aspect is something that is beyond me to an extent any more than me making my own decisions and making suggestions to others, maybe because I haven’t had a level of experience forceful enough to make me consider it completely certain. However the idea of there being consciousness forming influences is something I think is extremely interesting and extremely relevant to any debate on elites, world views and politics. In relation to this I think you can see trends that follow the power most definitely and try to form the flow of information to dictate, if you like, a prescribed world view. To give one example the use of Latin in the Catholic Church to alienate laity from the scripture where the clergy were essential for the translation and also to reaffirm that everyone had to thus make the use of clergy if they were to be saved is a prime example of the control of absolutely essential information that holds a massive influence on your consciousness in a number of ways. Following this the printing press and the rise of texts and newspapers brought about other changes, helping with the development of a Protestant trend where the interpretation became much more down to the individual than the prescribed overview (although this also ended up being compromised; this again points to the idea that it is a constant war, not one off situations where things remain changed for the better). However the development of these forms of information dissemination, such as newspapers, at first were revolutionary but quickly became bought and compromised. This follows through to the internet where the popularity of newspapers is declining so whilst our sources of information can no longer be bought outright as the internet is so broad, and so many have access, it can be flooded with contradictory information and those in the traditional seats of power can be controlling through purchasing resources to dominate the domain (the examples we hear of those people employed to provide comments or counter articles to contradict people who threaten those in power). They may not have complete coverage of the sources of information but they can do enough to emulate a denial of service attack whereby they overload individual people with contradictory information and so make them confused or doubt their opinions and then become apathetic or stick with the simplest message. This example is simply pulling at one thread that makes up the myriad of strings in the knot that is all our consciousnesses but it serves to illustrate a point that even before we get to the mystical I think there is a great deal to be understood about how we construct our narratives and in doing so we can begin to understand the influences on us more as well maybe gain more (though not total) self awareness and control of our own make up.

    In the end I think your two aims:

    “1 an end to elites and the inequality and ecocide going on and 2 a better understanding of the universe”

    are spot on and I think the position of having a positive perspective will have an influence on our actions, thoughts and views that is worthwhile, and maybe even essential, in addressing some of the problems out there. Where we differ I would say is in that I feel you think there is a much more direct and tangible influence between the thoughts you create and the related outcomes, whereas I may think the link is more ethereal. What I wonder now as some leading questions to continue this are firstly a reiteration of your point, and next one of my own:

    1. What is it that we should “charge” the elites with?

    2. What can WE do to change this situation?

    I’d love to know your thoughts on these…..

    Gareth

  3. Pingback: Some bits from discussions | Chorlton Philosophy Group

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